Myths about law

Nadai

Active Member
Themis was the Titan goddess of law and order. She was still around even after the Olympians took over; because she could see the future she became on of the oracles of Delphi.
Themis was the goddess of assemblies, an extension of her role as the goddess of divine law. A king would hear petitions and rule on matters of law and justice at the assembly. She also presided over the division of the sacrificial feast, and by extension over the Olympian feasts of the gods.
She was a prophetic goddess who presided over the most ancient oracles, including Delphoi. In this role, she was the divine voice (themistes) who first instructed mankind in the primal laws of justice and morality, such as the precepts of piety, the rules of hospitality (which Lycaaon broke and got the world flooded!), good governance, conduct of assembly, and pious offerings to the gods. In Greek, the word themis referred to divine law, those rules of conduct long established by custom. Unlike the word nomos, the term was not usually used to describe laws of human decree.
Themis, aided by her daughter Dike (Justice) was the counsellor of Zeus; she sat enthroned beside him, advising him on the conduct of men, reporting on those who breached the primal laws laid down by the gods. Apparently she sat at Zeus' side during the Trojan war. She was there during Thetis' wedding/rape and was the one to cast the apple amongst Hera, Aphrodite, and Athena alongside Zeus and Eris.
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Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 19 (trans. Celoria) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"[When thieves attempted to steal honey sacred Diktaion cave where Zeus was born :] Zeus thundered and brandished his thunderbolt, but the Moirai (Fates) and Themis (Divine Law) stopped him. It was impious for anyone to die there. So Zeus turned them all into birds."​
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Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 13. 298 ff (trans. Way) (Greek epic C4th A.D.) :
"Ay, wicked men never elude pure Themis (Divine Law) : night and day her eyes are on them, and the wide world through above the tribes of men she floats in air, holpen of Zeus, for punishment of sin."​
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Homer, Iliad 20. 5 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"Zeus, from the many-folded peak of Olympos, told Themis to summon all the gods into assembly [to hear his kingly decrees]. She went everywhere, and told them to make their way to Zeus’ house. There was no Potamos (River) who was not there, except only Okeanos, there was not any one of the Nymphai who live in the lovely groves, and the springs of rivers and grass of the meadows, who came not. These all assembling in the house of Zeus cloud gathering took places among the smooth-stone cloister walks which Hephaistos had built for Zeus the father by his craftsmanship and contrivance."​
 
Cool beans!! I've never seen so much information about law before. I'll have to send a link to this to a friend of mine who's an attorney. He'll get a kick out of it. Thanks!
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
Louis Royo? who is this person?

just thinking - i suppose when we say "court" its the same word as the social scene of a king when he's in his palace. So our courts are a descendant of that?
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 13. 298 ff (trans. Way) (Greek epic C4th A.D.) :​
"Ay, wicked men never elude pure Themis (Divine Law) : night and day her eyes are on them, and the wide world through above the tribes of men she floats in air, holpen of Zeus, for punishment of sin."​
i think this one comes closest to what i was thinking of when i made the first post. i was wondering whether there were ancient trials to find out whether someone did something or not. Here is an answer- Themis saw it all and people could take her word for it. Now i know i'll probably take this too far - but anyway...
let's imagine we're back in the old days in greece. a body is found by the village well. Themis knows who did it = she sees all the deeds of no-gooders. so if we don';t know ourselves we just need to ask themis. but as she's not around on a day to day basis we need an oracle for her, or some way of divination.

so were there ways of divination to discover guilt in the old days?
 

Nadai

Active Member
Louis Royo? who is this person?

just thinking - i suppose when we say "court" its the same word as the social scene of a king when he's in his palace. So our courts are a descendant of that?
Luis Royo is an artist. His work includes that of my new avatar of Persephone and Hades.
 

Nadai

Active Member
i think this one comes closest to what i was thinking of when i made the first post. i was wondering whether there were ancient trials to find out whether someone did something or not. Here is an answer- Themis saw it all and people could take her word for it. Now i know i'll probably take this too far - but anyway...
let's imagine we're back in the old days in greece. a body is found by the village well. Themis knows who did it = she sees all the deeds of no-gooders. so if we don';t know ourselves we just need to ask themis. but as she's not around on a day to day basis we need an oracle for her, or some way of divination.

so were there ways of divination to discover guilt in the old days?
I'm sure that, like when praying to any of the other gods, sacrifice had a part to play in the process. Perhaps if she was given a good enough offering then she would speak to a person directly, otherwise perhaps a person could consult an oracle or one of her priests.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
perhaps the situation you described on Olympus was mirrored in the human kingdoms: a king would have a woman at his side, a priestess of Themis, who declared in oracles the guilt or innocence of accused men and women.
I guess that divine social arrangements often do mirror human arrangements, so this would not be so odd.
But I can't think of any examples of this sort of priestess in the stories.
Maybe someone else can?
I really want to know how it was decided that someone was guilty or innocent in olden times.
 

Nadai

Active Member
perhaps the situation you described on Olympus was mirrored in the human kingdoms: a king would have a woman at his side, a priestess of Themis, who declared in oracles the guilt or innocence of accused men and women.
I guess that divine social arrangements often do mirror human arrangements, so this would not be so odd.
But I can't think of any examples of this sort of priestess in the stories.
Maybe someone else can?
I really want to know how it was decided that someone was guilty or innocent in olden times.
I think maybe during actual trials Themis would actually sit beside the ruling king. Remember that gods were omnipresent so several trials could be happening at once and she would be there. What I meant by my last post was that, since she is all-knowing where crimes are concerned, that if a person wanted to actually locate a suspect, they could consult her priests or make a sacrifice. But during actual trials Themis would sit beside a king; I suppose you could compare this to how the muses would speak to someone. A person could actually hear the voices of the muses giving them inspiration like with Hesiod. I suppose it would be the same anytime any god would choose to speak to a human. Sometimes a god could be invisible and whisper in someones ear like Envy did to punish the sisters of Hermes' mistress when they fell in love with him and thought to plot against their sister(I can't remember their names), or they could be seen only by the person they wished to speak to or appear in another form like when Zeus and Hermes went to the house of Lycaaon or the millions of times Zeus raped his mistresses.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
I think maybe during actual trials Themis would actually sit beside the ruling king. Remember that gods were omnipresent so several trials could be happening at once and she would be there. What I meant by my last post was that, since she is all-knowing where crimes are concerned, that if a person wanted to actually locate a suspect, they could consult her priests or make a sacrifice. But during actual trials Themis would sit beside a king; I suppose you could compare this to how the muses would speak to someone. A person could actually hear the voices of the muses giving them inspiration like with Hesiod. I suppose it would be the same anytime any god would choose to speak to a human. Sometimes a god could be invisible and whisper in someones ear like Envy did to punish the sisters of Hermes' mistress when they fell in love with him and thought to plot against their sister(I can't remember their names), or they could be seen only by the person they wished to speak to or appear in another form like when Zeus and Hermes went to the house of Lycaaon or the millions of times Zeus raped his mistresses.
great - this is exactly what i was looking for. now i can picture the scene at court where the king is dispensing justice. and i can imagine what might be going on in everyone's minds.
What youy say about ow the gods communicate with humans seems right to me.
Thanks, FD
 

magickz

Active Member
Law in general is a tricky matter, I think that is why so many people end up in court with their thumbs stuck in their ears. Too much to remember and too little time to remember it in.
 

Rhonda Tharp

Active Member
In Egyptian myth, Ma'at is the goddess of justice and order. Her symbol is a feather, which is placed on scales and weighed against the heart of a person being judged (to see if he can enter the Reed Fields with Osiris, or to be eaten by Ammut.) Not sure if this is the origin of the concept of "scales of justice"...

I recall reading the Contendings of Horus and Set. Re Harakte was a judge and needed to make a decision if Osiris' son, Horus, should become King or if Osiris' brother, Set, should.
 

Nadai

Active Member
In Egyptian myth, Ma'at is the goddess of justice and order. Her symbol is a feather, which is placed on scales and weighed against the heart of a person being judged (to see if he can enter the Reed Fields with Osiris, or to be eaten by Ammut.) Not sure if this is the origin of the concept of "scales of justice"...

I recall reading the Contendings of Horus and Set. Re Harakte was a judge and needed to make a decision if Osiris' son, Horus, should become King or if Osiris' brother, Set, should.
Sounds really interesting. I don't know a great deal about Egyptian myth; I read over a couple of myths during a discussion I had in class several years back about the afterlife. I wouldn't mind getting more information on it, though. Thanks, Rhonda!
 

LegendofJoe

Active Member
That's a great story.
Aftyer Set and Horus engaged in many battles in which there was no victor, there was a large meeting of all the gods to decide who should rule Egypt.
When a decision could not be made, Osiris himself appeared from the realm of the dead. He warned them all that in the end they would all eventually answer to him!
So Horus, the son and avenger of Osiris, was made Pharoah.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
Re was quite ineffectual in that struggle between Horus and Seth. He told them to go away and give him some peace and quiet. that was why Osiris decided the matter in the end.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
i read that the first trial for murder was Orestes', and it was at the Aeropagus in Athens. I think he was prosecuted by Clytemneastra's father - so his own grandfather, and defended by Apollo. The Furies would have been present too I imagine. But he was aquited.
 

LegendofJoe

Active Member
Re was quite ineffectual in that struggle between Horus and Seth. He told them to go away and give him some peace and quiet. that was why Osiris decided the matter in the end.
Yes.
Ra depended on Set to help him battle Apophis every morning before sunrise.
Set was a war god par excellence.
So he had to play nice nice with Set.
 
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